Author Topic: Open Canoe Designs for Racing  (Read 16512 times)

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Chris King

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Open Canoe Designs for Racing
« on: December 02, 2010, 07:28PM »
All:

I'm posting this outside of my current role (29 days or so remaining) for dialogue/paddler feedback. I'm posting this as a paddler, not an officer of the club, and therefore not officially representing the interests/positions of the club on this point.

There are conversations within SCORA about new classes in SCORA for new open/unlimited canoe designs (think Kamanu and Livestrong if you have followed their developments).  There is also talk of a standardized (would have to adhere to certain specs/limitations--hull design/weight/length) "high performance" California Class that could be used in SCORA.

Outside of SCORA, various associations in major paddling communities are opening up canoe designs for racing keeping the core attributes of the definition of an outrigger canoe intact.

Here are my thoughts

1. Which options would be best for SCORA?
A blend of unlimited and california class while keeping the traditional spec/bradley classes.

2. Why

(1) Progress and Design: While understanding the current design/weight limitations are designed to level the playing field (and you could say, make it all about the paddlers not the canoes), they are too limited to allow for significant progress in our sport.  From what I understand, OC-6 canoe design has been frozen since Molokai 1976 when the Tahitians used a canoe that destroyed the competition--the rules were put in place thereafter to make sure it never happened again.  As a result, evolution has stopped in Hawaii (which California followed), while in places like Tahiti, the rules are very loose allowing for creativity in the canoe design.

Secondly, while not an expert in the equipment guidelines in other sports, it appears that there is a fair amount of latitude in designing and creating high performance equipment that has steadily progressed over the years. While in outrigger canoeing, we have stayed with the same general design (with some hull modifications) for decades.

Lastly, as point of reference, look at what is happening in OC-1 (with limited rules on weight/fabrications/hull design--I could show up with almost anything at an OC-1 race as long as it has an ama and iakos, and not be questioned)-- there are multiple manufacturers, designs, configurations, materials etc.--freedom to design is creating an amazing array of canoes/designs and progressing the sport.

(2) Culture/Tradition: You may get some people saying we need to stay with the traditional design to respect the cultural heritage and significance of our sport, but as long as you keep some of the general parameters that truly define an outrigger canoe (iakos, ama, canoe, 6 paddlers), it will be respecting the roots/origins of the sport .  Look at the canoe evolution in Tahiti, and they have stayed true to the general design of the canoe/sport.

Plus we will still be allowing for "traditional" fiberglass canoes for racing where it comes down to pitting crews against crews in the same designs (vs. the open class where the equipment becomes a potential factor).

That brings up the last point, fiberglass, quick straps, duct tape, pumps are already outside the realm of true traditional materials.

(3) Tahiti & Hawaii: The momentum is happening as witnessed by several races in Hawaii this year.  If they are doing it where it is the state sport and a history of thousands of years of using canoes, then so should we sooner rather than later.

In Tahiti, its been done for years since the rules are much looser allowing for constant experimentation.

(4) Fun & Fast: In general, we race canoes to have fun, to go as fast as possible, and to surf--why would you want to put a limit on that?

(5) Costs: The Unlimited class will allow clubs to purchase high performance canoes that are currently being built in Hawaii or Tahiti (or anywhere else for that matter) if they have the funds.  The California Class will allow clubs that may not have the financial wherewithal to still purchase a potential high performance canoe at a reasonable price (and much less than a traditional Hawaiian without the shipping fee, royalties etc.).

(6) Interest: It could provide more interest within the paddling community and outside the paddling community about the latest designs, materials, races etc.  Look at all the hype in HI over the new designs--its created some excitement in the sport.

(7) Sprints
Limiting Sprints to ONLY the Spec/Mirages does make sense, where it can be crews challenging crews (not canoes vs. canoes)...this would also provide a forum for crews that may not have the lightest/fastest boat to beat crews that have the high-performance boats----giving them some bragging rights, and keeping things interesting.  Think about a situation where the top five canoes overall win races, but a spec crew beats them in a Sprint race.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2010, 07:33PM by Chris King »

Phillipuk

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Re: Open Canoe Designs for Racing
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2010, 03:57PM »
Chris,

Thanks for the summary position. 

As a relatively new paddler, I'd hate to see changes in the sport solely driven by technology and equipment. But I think you've presented a solution that accommodates both tradition and innovation.  Besides, without knowing too much history, I have to believe that if the "Ancients" had the means to advance canoe designs at the pace we can, they would have done it.  The canoe was their life and livelihood; why not go further, faster?

Having said this, did you post your thoughts for a particular purpose?  Is there campaign to create a new, more flexible class of canoes for SCORA? 

I'm just curious.  Thanks!

Chris King

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Re: Open Canoe Designs for Racing
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2010, 06:16PM »
Hi Phil:

Many associations are revisiting their canoe classes in light of recent advances....some of these associations are passing Kamanu and Livestrong type canoes to further the advancement of the sport while keeping true to its roots--this includes the new modified canoes (that must still have ama, iakos, six-paddlers etc.) plus keeping the "traditional" classes that we as Marina race in.

SCORA is contemplating this new class, and voting on it this weekend--my personal feelings are that if not passed, California will be left behind while other associations take steps forward.

Look at OC-1 progression in design/materials/hull design/weight in just the past five years.

With regards to "ancients", if they had the option of faster or slower canoes, what do you think they would opt for?

cjk
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 06:18PM by Chris King »

shag

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Re: Open Canoe Designs for Racing
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2010, 06:54PM »
Well stated Mr. King.

Dale

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Re: Open Canoe Designs for Racing
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2010, 12:25AM »
The ones that are against it are not true paddlers.

segan

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Re: Open Canoe Designs for Racing
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2010, 07:36AM »
I am betting that if the Polynesians had carbon fiber, foam core, and epoxy resin they would have used it to build an amazingly fast war/fishing machines....From what I have read, the resistance to building an open class is that some clubs may lack the resources needed to purchase or build high tech canoes,  as a result those clubs may be left behind when the canoe "arms race" begins...this argument seems weak so long as the current classes remain.
Eitherway, I'd like to see an open class, it would be even better if each club had to build and design their own open class canoes instead of buying off the shelf from a manufacturer, you'd see some innovative canoe design (along with a lot of disastrous ideas).

painteur

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Re: Open Canoe Designs for Racing
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2010, 09:47AM »
From what I hear the new canoes aren't that much more expensive. Only a few have been built and once in production I predict that the price will be the same. Smaller clubs have to buy canoes anyways, most likely used ones. So the only disadvantage would be some lag time until used ones become available.

van

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Re: Open Canoe Designs for Racing
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2010, 09:09AM »
when can we put a sail on it then? kidding...

an open class would be exciting to see...the advancement, the experimentation...will it sink or swim?
but in a sea of canoes, it's usually the koa canoe that catches my eye...

cho

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Re: Open Canoe Designs for Racing
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2010, 10:55AM »
This is a good debate that's been raging on ocpaddler.com and around bbq's and races.  the "tradition" vs. "advancement".  will the new designs of these lighter and faster carbon fiber canoes betray the cultural heritage of paddling, and will it become like every other global commoditized sport...

As mentioned before, a fiberglass canoe is not "traditional" and if someone can accept a fiberglass canoe, then they are the wrong person to argue about tradition.  how far back do you go to make the demarcation for what's traditional and what's natural evolution?

The governing organizations decided to stop time with a canoe design and weight based on wood fishing canoes.  it only happens in a situation where history and culture is curated in a museum, and not lived everyday.  It's understandable in Hawaii, where the native culture was nearly stamped out, and the "tradition" was something that was cherished because it was almost lost.

If you look at Tahiti, where the culture was less disrupted and more continuous, such notions of tradition is less important since it was not threatened and the culture is lived on a daily basis which allows it to evolve naturally and not stop at some random point in time.  Performance is put first because that is natural evolution.

There is validity to the differing viewpoints, as long as it's consistent.  If we're using carbon fiber blades, and fiberglass canoes, and automatic bailers, and quickstraps, then that discussion of tradition has left the building long time ago.



A ship in harbor is safe - but that is not what ships are for.

MARLA

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Re: Open Canoe Designs for Racing
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2010, 01:14PM »
Well said, Steve!

Chris King

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Re: Open Canoe Designs for Racing
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2010, 10:18PM »
by the way, this was voted against by SCORA.....

meanwhile, the momentum continues in Hawaii and elsewhere while we sit on the sidelines and watch....the latest:

http://www.olamaurace.com/

Maui to Molokai to Oahu

Chris

Chris King

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Re: Open Canoe Designs for Racing
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2010, 09:17AM »
here is a video showing the course..


billiegirl

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Re: Open Canoe Designs for Racing
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2010, 03:10PM »
WOW

todd smith

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Re: Open Canoe Designs for Racing
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2011, 03:27PM »
The gole back then was, to get there as fast and easy as possible , because, when they got there they had to battle  a war or just visit a neiboring island, so if you gave them a elite carbon boat, they would of been all over it, besides we already advanced because we rarely use Kia boats anyway. We need to see how fast we can go , no limits man !!!!!!

todd smith

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Re: Open Canoe Designs for Racing
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2011, 07:19PM »
KOA !!!!!!!!!

todd smith

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Re: Open Canoe Designs for Racing
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2011, 06:17PM »
We need to build one & race it anyway, who cares if we get DQd. This is so lame, if this is the thinking process then why are we not racing Malia boats anymore, WHY, BECAUSE THEY ARE SLOW & better faster designs were developed like the Kionie, Hawaiian class racer, the Bradley and merage, the next step is to do better then that RIGHT????? The culture is in us and not the material that makes the boat(except KOA) we spread the culture to others and share the history & LOVE of it all. 

Chris King

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Re: Open Canoe Designs for Racing
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2011, 08:46PM »
I'm in..lets do it

Jim

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Re: Open Canoe Designs for Racing
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2011, 06:16PM »
by the way, this was voted against by SCORA.....

Chris

Is there a record of the SCORA minutes?  I'm curious to see their reasoning for voting against.

I was at a factory in Bangkok last week to buy epoxy.  They were making things from various epoxies, polyester resins, fiberglass, carbon fiber, chopped mat, et. al.  It is all the same process and essentially the same product - a two-part resin reinforced matrix.  The only differences are in the properties of the chemical bonds (and the cost). We already use carbon fiber epoxy paddles.  Why not da boat?